In this episode, we’ll talk about how to design and create a podcast website that encourages visitors to listen to your episodes, subscribe to your show, and makes it easy to search and find any other valuable content you want to present to your listeners.
We’ll cover common mistakes we see, why your company needs a website or web presence for your podcast, design components you’ll need to think about, and technical considerations.
Think of this as the ultimate guide to building your very own podcast website.
If you’re going to add your podcast episodes to your existing company site, make sure to give them a dedicated home versus mixing the episodes into your blog. This will allow visitors to easily distinguish between written and audio content. It’s also important to link your podcast page prominently on your site (add to the main navigation, not just the footer) to increase visibility.
Make your episode pages robust and intuitive for your visitors. Rather than simply embedding the audio and adding a description, think about how you can incorporate top quotable moments, important resources mentioned, more info about the guest, related episodes, and even the full transcript. Not only will this encourage your visitors to engage further with the episodes on your site, but it will also give you some residual SEO benefits.
By having a podcast landing page or section on your website, you’re making it easier for others to share your episodes on social media and link to your site if they want to refer to any of your episodes in their own content. This helps you build backlink SEO juice, which improves your overall domain authority on Google.
We often see this with clients where the number 2 or 3 most listened to platform for their podcast is their website, oftentimes ahead of Google or Amazon and sometimes even ahead of Spotify or Apple.
Allow listeners to search and filter by category, topic, or keyword to make it easier for them to find exactly what they’re looking for. This search could also surface related articles or guides making your website a stronger and more robust content play.
You can invite visitors to do a number of things on your podcast website, like subscribe to your show on their preferred platform, submit questions or guest requests, or sign up for your newsletter if that content would be relevant to them. You want to make sure you promote a clear call-to-action so listeners know what step to take after they’ve visited the site and listened to your show.
Rather than nesting your podcast within your company website (yoursite.com/podcast) or even tying it to a subdomain (podcast.yourcompany.com), you’ll want to consider giving your podcast its own branded domain name if you’re thinking of building a long-term community from this. The benefit of this is it gives your podcast a completely distinct brand identity, separate from your company’s. You can style how you want, give it a different navigation menu, include forums or Q&As, etc. It also helps you build implicit trust with your audience because they won’t feel like they’re being sold to.
When your podcast lives within your company site, you’re better able to take advantage of the SEO benefits of adding all this content to your site, and it lets you promote your brand more. Your podcast listeners can view your full navigation and explore your product, use cases, or even book a call without having to go somewhere else to find you.
This is where your episodes are hosted and then distributed to all the major podcast players. We recommend a platform like Transistor or Simplecast. This is where you’ll upload your episode audio file, artwork, show notes, and transcript for it to be shared with Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, etc.
Apps like Zapier allow you to build automation funnels where when an episode is published, it can automatically create an episode page on your website and put it into draft mode. It could pull in the title based on the title of your episode and maybe even automatically pull the episode description. This will help save your marketing team from having to rebuild episode pages on your site after inputting all information into your podcast hosting platform.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another Q&A episode of Brands that Podcast. In this episode, we're going to talk about how to design and build an effective podcast website. So basically we'll be talking about how to design and create a podcast that encourages your visitors to listen to your episodes, subscribe to your show, um, and it makes it easier to find and consume other valuable content that you've put in the hard work of.
So let's jump right in first common mistakes that we see, um, some of these mistakes, uh, you'd be surprised how many brands are sort of committing them and how many companies, uh, are doing these mistakes. The first is not having a web presence at all. So believe it or not. So. Companies, uh, put in all this work to produce their show and then don't host it anywhere on their website or come up with any sort of web presence for it.
They just kind of leave it natively, you know, within podcast players. The other mistake we see is that they don't have a dedicated place for episodes. So this is a lot more common. This is like, they will. Go through the work of hosting the episodes on their website or having them on their website, but there's no dedicated place.
They basically mix it in with their blog. I've even seen companies where the URL, like it's not forward slash episode, you know, forward, slash away. Like with that kind of parent child relationship, it's actually like just buried under the blog. Like any other article it's like forward slash blog and the title of the episode and the only way to go find it is to click blog.
And when you see thumbnails, they're just mixing together articles and podcast episodes. So that's a huge mistakes you making. Um, because obviously. It doesn't allow people to know that you have a podcast and it doesn't allow them to easily distinguish between, you know, your written content and your audio content.
The next mistake I've seen is that they don't, if they have a spot and it is dedicated for episodes, they don't make it robust enough or intuitive enough. They just don't put enough thought into the user experience of it. So for example, there's all kinds of space you could use if you are going to build out a dedicated episode page where you can put, you know, links to other episodes that are related. Like you can use your website CMS to like promote other episodes that fit the same category so that they listen to multiple episodes or it makes it easier for your visitors to find relevant content. You could put, um, a summary of each episode with bullet point takeaways or.
You know, top quotable moments, um, or even a transcript, if you're hoping to just catch some like residual SEO effect, you could put at the bottom of the page, the whole transcript, but I've seen a number of companies, um, not do anything like this. They just basically embed the player, give it a title and maybe a paragraph.
And that's it. So not putting enough thought into it, uh, into the user experience, making it like once you're here. What can you do once you're on that episode page, is there a clear call to action to listen to the next episode and things like that? Another mistake I see is not making it easy to listen on people's preferred platforms.
So. You know, like on one hand, we do see when we use to produce shows for, for brands, we did find to our surprise, actually that oftentimes the number two or number three preferred channel that their metrics were reporting on, that they were getting listens on was the embedded player, which showed us people really do want to listen on your website.
Um, on the other hand, There's a lot of other players, people prefer listening to, and if you want them to be subscribers of the show and regularly listening, it's much easier for them to go into Spotify, pull up Spotify, or pull up castoffs or whatever. Like. And find you there and get notified there when new episodes come out.
So we really recommend, um, making sure that you put all the logos of at least the most common podcast platforms, if not sort of all of them where, when people are on that episode, if they want to subscribe or keep listening, they can click one link and it opens up the player on their app. If they're on their phone and they can subscribe to your show there.
So make it easy for them to listen where they want. The other final mistake we see a lot of is not linking to the. Prominently or not promoting it prominently on the website. So even if they have a good podcast landing page with an episode's directory and you know, they do robust shownotes and all these things, um, I've seen some brands where the company does not list it in the main navbar like even under resources, like I saw one company that just put it in the footer.
So you need to make sure that you're promoting it prominently. All right, so getting into that, like get it. So those are some of the common mistakes we see. Now I'll go into why your company actually needs a website or web presence for your podcast. Uh, first of all, it gives you one URL to share the episode.
This is really important. If you want, you know, to encourage your company or your team to promote it, you need to make it really easy to promote. And so rather than having everyone choose sort of the link that they're listening to podcasts on, like two people might be on Spotify, a few on apple, a few on Google, it just gives one link.
Like this is the link to share of our latest episode. Um, that also means it's one page that houses all the info you want. So it's a very clean way to drive. To the one place online where you want them to view, show notes or other links or anything relevant you're promoting in that episode. And again, it also lets your audience have one place where they can go and then pick from there.
Where do I want to listen to this on the regular? Like probably they're not going to. You know, open up your website. Like they would a podcast app if they're going to become regular listeners. So this lets them go start there as like a URL that's on your site. And then from there they can pick where they want to actually subscribe to your show and go listen.
The next benefit is you, you need one because of all the SEO benefits for your company website or your root domain, if that's where you're housing it. Um, if anyone decides to link to that episode, and the episode is hosted on your company's website, um, on your root domain somewhere, this is going to be back links to your, to your website.
So you're going to get backlink benefits. You're also going to get benefits from the direct visits and social shares. It gets so, you know, whatever SEO benefit there is to, uh, th that Google takes in attributing direct visits and social shares of different URLs that you're running. This is all going to benefit your other SEO efforts.
The next reason why you need one is it's going to let you promote other helpful and relevant content. You put a lot of work and time into creating, maybe you're running a complimentary video series, or maybe you're doing, you know, these breakout guides are really in-depth articles uh, you know, and you're doing all this work in ungated content or something like that.
This is going to let you, if you're doing it strategically and assuming, you know, your company website is on some sort of CMS, like Webflow, um, or WordPress, or, you know, even Squarespace or something like. It's going to let you promote and surface other pieces of content, whether those are episodes or articles or videos or guides that are tagged with the same thing or that are given the same categories.
So you can utilize your company's website CMS categories and tags to surface other content. Um, so you're going to be able to promote that there and suggest other episodes or videos or things like that. It also. Has an effect if you're hosting it on your root domain of introducing listeners to your company and services.
So you don't even need to be like really obnoxious about promoting that. If they're going over to listen to the episode and check it out, they're going to see up in the nav menu services or use cases, or they're going to see your logo and click on that and go to the homepage and explore and learn more about what is this company about that's putting this out. So that's just a great residual effect. And then finally, um, people just prefer listening on your site. And again, we were surprised to find this. We often saw with our clients that it would be the number two or three most listened to platform, sometimes even ahead of Spotify or Apple.
Like sometimes it would be apple, the embedded player on their website, then Spotify or vice versa. Um, and oftentimes came above Google or even Amazon. So we were surprised how much people really want to listen to the episode on your way. All right. So that's why you need to be running a web presence for your podcast.
Now let's get into a website design components and our recommendations for this. So overall, there are two approaches that you can go with and we'll kind of dive more. Uh, I'll go more into depth here. In a moment, you can build a separate podcast site and brand and you, or you can build, you know, a podcast presence on your routes.
And we'll talk in a moment about what those are, but basically the first one building a separate podcast site or brand, I'll give examples of each of these at the end, but this is like, you're going to take out a domain name based around the podcast. You're going to drive people there and you're going to maintain a completely separate web presence.
Um, this will do things like allow you to build a community. And it's really, truly just a website for your podcast. It's not tied to your company at all. Maybe there's like a subtle nod to your company. And then in the second example, it's like my company.com forward slash podcast or something like that. Um, and that's going to be hosted right on your existing company's website.
This is what most companies are probably going to go for. So in a moment, I'll give some examples of what we think is best, but let's first get into the components it should need. So if you're going to build out a better web experience for your podcast, for your company, you know, you're in charge of marketing or content at your company, here's a few components you'll want and the value of each.
You'll want an episode directory or listing. So first of all, when they go to the podcast, um, whether it's in the nav menu or something like that on the podcast landing page, they should see an episode directory. This is a summary view of all the episodes that you've released with a shortened description of each, maybe some thumbnails, um, and then clicking one allows them to go, obviously into, into that episode.
You'll also want robust episode search. I really think more companies could get better at allowing listeners to search by category, topic or keyword. And again, the other thing here is you could choose if you've got a robust CMS, like Webflow or something you could choose to surface, um, articles or guides or other like video content by category, topic, or keyword alongside it, which would have let you fold your website into a more robust content play.
You might consider having question submission or a guest request submission form, where they can, uh, request a topic or a question or a guest that they want to see. You can invite them to sign up to your newsletter if it's relevant. And sometimes, you know, you're even running a complimentary newsletter that ties in with the podcast brand.
That's something that you can promote as, as a clear call to action. Obviously every episode should have its own episode page. This is usually, you know, with an embedded player, letting people lists, you know, links where they can go listen to the episode on their favorite podcast player, potentially, um, timestamps, quotable, moments, links, uh, transcripts, anything that you want to include in there.
Uh, you'll want to include a call to action to subscribe on top platforms, do that on the, on the overall listing page and do that on each episode. Um, also consider adding in social proof. So include some reviews, like let people see a good reviews of the show. Maybe go to apple and Spotify, Spotify just rolled out reviews, go pick like three to five and start incorporating them onto the show.
You might also include, you know, company logos or, um, of companies that are featured on your show or expertise that's featured on your show. You also might want to add in host bio, so on the route, you know, podcast landing page, talk about who the hosts are of the show or the people that are featured in the episode.
You can do the same thing with robust guest bio's, let them see the credentials and experience and why they should check it out, um, and then provide some about information. What's the goal of the show? Why should they listen? What's the show shaped around? Um, how does it tie into your brand? And then finally a call to action to visit, you know, your website, to learn more about your services.
You may want to include that at the bottom of every episode, for example. So that's basically the components that you could consider adding in depending on how robust you want to make your podcast website. The next thing is, um, should you, let's get back to this idea of, should you host it on a sub domain, a separate domain, or a sub-directory?
So this is like a technical way of saying, should you spin out a separate podcast brand or should you host it on your company's website? So let's start with the sub domain. This is going to be like your podcast.my company.com or podcast.example.com. Um, the pros here is that there's potentially still some SEO benefit uh, to whatever degree Google will see your subdomain as tying into your root domain. Um, but you know, I don't know how much SEO benefit there's going to be from that. But the other good example here is, uh, or, or benefit here is that you're going to get brand awareness in the URL. So they're going to see the name of, you know, podcasts.
You're a company.com. They're going to get to see your company.com in the brand URL. It also allows you to, um, to brand in the podcast and, um, you can easily link. You know, over, like you can include the company logo. We've even seen people, uh, like one company where they basically match the styling of their website and the navbar exactly to the root domain.
It's just that they hosted it on a sub domain. And basically the main benefit here. I think like this isn't what I'd recommend usually, but the main benefit here is it's going to allow, if you don't necessarily want to drive to a separate URL based around, or a separate website or web presence, based around the show name um, but, but you, your tech stack does not allow like the kind of robust podcast presence you want or your dev team is, you know, or your marketing team or whoever's handling the website is super slogged down and is like going to take six months to like add in stuff that you want. It does. This is kind of like.
I, I feel this should be used in, in that use case where like, if you need to spin out a podcast website that the marketing team can have control over using web flow and just your existing company website and tech stack does not allow for it. Um, but you still want the benefit of like your company name, like the company at the root domain.
This is a great way where you can spin out a podcast and no time the marketing team can run it or the content team can run it, whatever. Um, you can make all the changes you need and you're not waiting. Like you're not worrying about breaking anything on the root domain. So this is a good example. Like that's where I would recommend it being used for the most part.
The next way you could do it as a separate domain or, you know, build out your own podcast brand. So the main pro here is that again, you're going to build out your own podcast brand. It gives you the ability to, to host your own website. And I think that this is the best play for the longterm, if you're trying to build a longterm community around this show.
So if you want advanced things like a forum or Q&A, or, you know, if this is really going to be like a spinoff brand and you're going to do the work of your company is going to say like, you know, for example, this would be like, if we built brands that podcasts.com as a, um, as a separate like site, let's say on web flow, this would allow us to do brands that pod.
It has its own navbar its own look and feel it's styled completely based off of our show artwork. And then in the upper left, it just says, buy lemon pie, you know, or by the people at lemon pie or something like that. And like this would be the best use case. If we wanted to create really robust features, a community, a job board, like anything that you might want to add in there.
Um, that's what this is best for. It's also good. If you're really trying to build out a dedicated content brand. So I'll go over a good example of this at the end, but that's the main use like strength and use case. I see for it. Um, it will allow you in the long run. I think too, there's probably more implicit trust because people don't feel they're being sold anything.
So if there and it's just free, valuable content or a community or a link to a Slack community or something like that, it's just built around this. So you have to be pretty dedicated to building out this, you know, separate podcast brand, but I do think it's easier to build trust with that than like, "Oh, this company is hosting this to sell me something."
Um, however, the cons here are, it may not promote your brand as obviously. This is something, uh, you know, the InVision team ran into when, when they did, this was an example I'll do, I'll say at the end. Um, and you can listen to that interview is like, it can actually have the effect of like, people spend so much time there, but don't like, you can actually get it a little bit wrong where you don't actually promote your company or your, you know, the parent brand as, as well as you should.
And it's not maybe as clear as it could be that this is like the company putting this show. Um, so this one's best, I think if you're trying to build out a real separate community or an entire dedicated content brand where the creative team wants, like full control over everything. And then, there's a sub-directory method, which is what most people are going to do.
This is your company, like mycompany.com forward slash podcast. Um, this is like, this provides the most immediate direct SEO benefit. Any one linking to your podcast or sharing on social or anything like that is benefiting your root domain. Um, it also is kind of the perfect hybrid in our minds of, as long as your website is flexible enough, like most, you know, most of the company websites that you're probably running on are going to allow you to build a fairly robust, beautiful landing page on my company.com forward slash podcast.
You can build that CMS directory. It's going to let you put in everything, all the components I listed same as a separate website would be, but it just lets you, um, promote your brand more. Again, people are being able, it's all the benefits I said at the beginning, people are able to see your logo in the upper left.
They can view the rest of your navigation. If they want to explore your product or use cases or book a call or what it does. Um, Also, if you're already running a robust CMS for guys or articles or videos or anything like that, and the podcast is being tacked on at a later stage, you're going to be able to search the rest of that.
If there's a search function, you can tap into those existing categories and promote those existing resources. So this is probably what most people should go. It's kind of the best benefit of letting you run a really good web presence, but also promoting your brand and your other content. The only downside here is that if you really, really wanted to build out a community and other functions to this, you probably would find that you need to outgrow it at some point and build on a separate domain.
But in the interim, you can do what we do, which is just buy the podcast domain. That may be easier to remember like brands that podcast.com and then just redirect that over to this landing page.
Okay. The next section let's get into building the site, so the technical components that you'll need. Uh, this is really obvious to most people listening, but you'll need a website platform. Most likely a CMS. I have found Webflow and WordPress to be really good for this there's other new platforms like Ghost.
Um, you can even use more, uh, DIY tools like Squarespace for this. So you'll need a website platform where it's going to be hosted and, you know, probably for most uh, marketers listening or content managers listening, this is going to be whatever the platform is, your company websites built on. You'll need a podcast hosting platform.
This is obviously like Transistor or, um, Simple Cast or whatever, where your, your, um, hosting your actual show. And they're going to spit out the embed codes that you need. And that's the third thing you'll need is a method of embedding the actual player on your episode. And most, most of these hosts are going to let you are going to provide a nice embed player. Platforms like Transistor even let you have like a playlist, I think if, if that's something you want.
The only other thing to consider here on building out the actual website is you will want to consider maybe, it can be fairly, um, time-consuming to have someone from your team, sort of like build the episode one place, like in, you know, say for example, in transistor or in wherever you're hosting your show, then go back out and rebuild it all over.
Um, so there is potential for automation for this via Zapier or other tools like that. So for example, if you choose, like, let's say you're on Webflow, Webflow exposes an API and Transistor exposes an API. Most of these podcast hosts expose an API. So it's there look into potential here for setting up automations where maybe when, uh, a new episode is published you know, the, the article actually gets created or put into draft mode and it's pulling the title. It's setting a URL based on it. It's taking the show notes that you've added to your hosting platform and putting it under the summary section, and then it's dropping in the embed code. So these are all things that can be automated.
And then your team can just go through with like a fine tooth comb and, and adjust anything. Uh, But that's basically what you'll want. And the only other consideration here is again, do you want to cross promote other content or tap into your CMS's existing tags and categories. So we'll wrap up here with two examples of great company podcast website.
And I'll kind of talk through what I like about both. If you're listening and you're in front of a computer, you can, you can visit each to look at it or check it out later. So first is MailChimp presents. This is an example of hosting on a root domain and, uh, focused on building the main brand, you know, MailChimp in this case.
So. If you go to mailchimp.com forward slash presents, you'll see a beautiful example of this. And I'll kind of talk through some of the things that I'm, that I'm looking at and referring to, first of all, they take their logo MailChimp, but they add the word presents. So they like are able to take the, the content.
They did the, all the work of building out a full content platform. Um, and so the logo is even different in the upper right. Based on, like, if you were to go to mailchimp.com, it's changed from there. Uh, the nav menu has changed. So they're showing a completely, you know, this is possible on, on website platforms that your companies are running on, where you may be able to show a custom navbar based on where they are in.
The player. So for example, when I'm here, the entire nav menu goes away. There's no features, there's no like free trial or anything. It just says, watch, listen. And then there's like a hamburger menu to see some of the promoted content. It's really beautiful. The hero image is a featured episode. They're putting a featured episode at the top with a call to action to listen.
Every episode has its own dedicated page. And then when I scroll down, I see this, you know what we talked about, this, um, directory of all content. So I see dozens of videos and, uh, podcast episodes. There's basically video and audio content. Then they have this filter for a watch or. And if I click listen, I'm, I'm pulling up just the audio content and every show has its own dedicated show page.
It's really robust, really clean, really nice at the, at the bottom in the footer. There's a call to action to sign up for news from MailChimp presents. Uh, and the footer is even customized to say a collection of original content that celebrates the entrepreneurial spirit. So the header, the nav menu and the footer are unique.
They're different than what's on mailing. Main domain, but they're getting that benefit of still hosting it on mailchimp.com. This isn't like MailChimp presents.com. This is mailchimp.com forward slash presents, but they were able to build out this really, really, um, robust content portal. And when I go to the actual, can you hear it start to play?
When I go to the, when I pick up a specific podcast, I want to listen to in their network, the left side automatically starts playing the latest episode. There's a call to action to subscribe, which when I click it again, one of the components we recommended, pulls up apple podcasts, Google play, and Spotify.
So I'm getting this example of, uh, of the example to subscribe wherever I want to listen to there's call to actions to share this episode via email or link or Twitter or Facebook. And then there's an entire episode directory of this show. And I actually. Um, and again at the bottom, there's, there's the call to action to sign up for this.
So they're driving you to their newsletter, which you would obviously expect from MailChimp. So this is just a really beautiful example. You should, you should mimic and take lessons from, if you want to build out a really unique, dedicated. You know, content brand or podcast brand, but you're limited to doing it on your root domain.
This is like an example of pushing the boundaries of what's possible. It's absolutely beautiful. Second example is designed better. This is like MailChimp presents a dedicated content brand of audio and written content. Um, and this is hosted by the team at. These, this is an example of building the podcast brand or building the content brand in this case on a separate domain.
So this is actually designed better.co forward slash podcast. Or if you go to the root domain design, better.co you'll, sort of see everything. So here, what I love about this is. They do mimic their company's nav menu. So at the top I see InVision. So I know the company that's presenting this content brand to me.
I know that whatever is under the design better brand and the, and the root domain I'm on. I it's from InVision. I can see it in the, in the, in the upper left. There's the logo and they've, they've mimicked their nav menu. So I see product customers, resources I can read about case studies. I can read, use cases for the product.
So again, they're getting that. Of letting people explore their product, but they're still driving them to a dedicated content brand. Similar to MailChimp. They're doing a good job of filtering here. There's uh, like right in the, basically they use a sub navigation menu similar to MailChimp's where I see there, there are guide books, podcasts and conversations.
So conversations is like, there. You know, journalistic style articles, podcasts is obviously podcasts books, or the longer form written and then design maturity model is their big industry report that they put out. So again, they're letting you filter very easily by what I want. And there's a very intuitive search function here where I can type in by keyword and it will surface any of those things that matches by key.
Um, everything is matching the look and feel of their, of their podcast brand and their, and their content brand. And again, similar to, to MailChimp, they're letting me subscribe wherever I listen. So when I hover over subscribe to podcast, it looks like a button and then it reveals apple, Spotify, Google, and then just the RSS feed.
So they're letting they're trying to drive you to the native platform where you want it also similar to MailChimp. They're letting you share. The design better brand via link, LinkedIn, Facebook or Twitter. And then when I click on podcast, there's two cool things we've got going. One is a featured episode, same as MailChimp, the entire episode directory.
So I can keep scrolling down sort of endlessly to see all the episodes, but then because they run in season. They have something where I can actually click on a season and jump to the season that I'm interested in. Uh, and I can explore more about that season. Like the people that are hosting it and the episodes that are in it.
And again, similar to MailChimp, when I click and view this episode, I can listen to the podcast here, natively on the page. I can subscribe to it wherever I want, and then what they do. That's really interesting. Uh, that we are thinking about stealing as, as an idea, that's super cool. Is it shows who the episodes featuring and does a neat little like image and bio on the actual people that are featured in the show.
They do a pretty robust summary, some bullet point takeaways bio's on the people. And then, uh, an introduction to the host of the show, uh, sorta toward the end of the episode page. And then they, again, invite you to subscribe. Another cool thing is here. They basically, uh, mimic their brand footer. So this is kind of the opposite of MailChimp MailChimp hosts on mailchimp.com, but like makes the nav menu and the footer completely.
Um, so that it looks like you're just stuck on MailChimp presents like a separate brand designed better, uses a completely separate URL, but then matches the nav menu and the footer so that you still feel like you're kind of on the company website and you can explore it if you want to. But both of them do amazing, amazing jobs of including all the components we talked about and making it super easy to search by keyword.
To search by season to delineate between written and video content or audio content, and to subscribe at the places where you, you know, most, most like consuming podcasts. So again, those examples are designed better.co and mailchimp.com forward slash presents. So if you want. When my opinion, what are two masterclasses in building out a great podcast website for your company?
Check those out. All right. Thanks for listening to this Q and a episode. We'll catch you in the next one.